Bioshock Rapture: Part 2

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Automated Transcript

He got us. You got a Sega.

Kevin Erhard  0:04
That's Daniel Molins.

Phil  0:06
Fuckin Daniel melons, melons,

Kevin Erhard  0:08
Goddess melons, Daniel melons, melons. Oh, Daniel Molins. You got us? Oh

Phil  0:14
my gosh, that's ridiculous.

Kevin Erhard  0:16
But you know what he didn't get?

Phil  0:18
What didn't he get Kevin?

Kevin Erhard  0:21
Hey there, everybody. Welcome back to pixelate, my name is Kevin, alongside with me, as always is Phil. Hello. And today we're talking about more BioShock rapture

Phil  0:34
BioShock rapture

Kevin Erhard  0:36
specifically, it's hard

Phil  0:37
to still still so very good. Very good. Yeah, sorry. Good. There's now Part Two is is is easily the medius. It is hard to miss what

Kevin Erhard  0:49
is the meaty, the meaty part of the book where you're really figuring out like, oh, yeah, this is where a lot of these the audio journals that you find in Bioshock one of them are recorded in this era. Because even they even hint at the even even reference the the audio journal recording devices

Phil  1:13
that make a point of it. Which I got a real kick out of, because at this point, because it wasn't long after this was I don't I can't speak to whether or not BioShock was the first game that used the audio journals for like flavor and everything like that. But they were i i have to feel like they were definitely the people who really popularized the whole thing. And it wouldn't take long after this first game for that to just be paradise like, yes, so quickly. Right? So the fact that they even though they address it, just I got a real kick out of that. I

Kevin Erhard  1:50
thought it was Yeah, and they they because they do that. It's it's in Bioshock it's a you'll see it in Dishonored as well. They use they use audio logs, and it kind of became a thing. And yeah, like you said, I don't know if BioShock is the first thing that used it, but definitely

Phil  2:09
ran into it a lot in in a dead space. Dead Space is big

Kevin Erhard  2:16
on era, right? Yo games, that space was big on the audio journal.

Phil  2:21
Absolutely. They just they just they kept popping up because an audio journals were fantastic. Because unless unless for whatever reason, the game designer, I recall this being a huge issue with a lot of people were a lot there were not a lot. But there were games out there that you had to sit and listen to the audio files. If you wanted to listen to them. You could just have them playing while you were running around or shoot a ship, which is

Kevin Erhard  2:48
just wasted. Yeah, waste do that.

Phil  2:50
Because that was the best part about the audio recordings. You could listen to them and write keep the game going. It was fantastic. Yeah.

Kevin Erhard  2:57
And is it because so and so in Bioshock that you can definitely you pick them up? And it's you, you know, you press was L on the on the keyboard to play them or something like that.

Phil  3:08
Yeah. So and you get a ton of them. You got a ton of so many.

Kevin Erhard  3:13
They really flesh out the story. Yeah. Now I, I probably could have looked this up before we started. But I've been playing BioShock two, and I've been noticing the only one I had played previously was Bioshock. I hadn't I played a bit of infinite. And I hadn't played two at all. So I'm playing to now and I've noticed in part two of the book, there are characters that only popped up in Bioshock two appearing now in part two of the book as a means of I guess tying both one and two together. I got

Phil  3:55
to say even with the fact that Bioshock Infinite deals with a very different world if they name drop one particular character in the book who is in Bioshock Infinite so it really it really crosses the entire trilogy.

Kevin Erhard  4:16
Yeah, yeah, it's it's it's like a linchpin trying to tie tie the three together even though Infinite is is like 50 years prior or something like that. It's something like that. It takes place it takes place like nearly 50 years in the past or something like that. I can't remember.

Phil  4:32
years I need to, um, I every time I play BioShock something in my computer shuts it down. And so I'm trying to get through it and mostly trying to get through it because I've never played BioShock to like you and I'm just desperate to have an excuse to Play Bioshock Infinite again.

Kevin Erhard  4:52
Yeah. Bioshock two is pretty good. I've been playing it so far. I remember it was I'm not sure I think it was a letdown after One from, you know, critical consensus or whatever, who cares them? It was a, it was I think it was considered a letdown after one. But it is. It's fun. It's a it's a fun game. And you know, I, I have been not much bad say about it so far. He plays he plays a big daddy.

Phil  5:20
Yes. Yeah. It was such a fun.

Kevin Erhard  5:25
It's a fun, it's a fun twist. It's a little weird. Because you don't see think of Big Daddies as having the agency that you would need for a player character to have. But, you know, it's, it is what it is. Interesting.

Phil  5:45
That's very interesting. So

Kevin Erhard  5:46
part two starts with Andrew Ryan. Mm, giving another there's another little quote here, talking about the chain that pulls the society in the right direction. And that's going to be something that he references

Phil  6:03
so much today, it's a core tenet of his beliefs is that George

Kevin Erhard  6:07
Tenet, the great chain in in free markets, like economics, you would you some people might call it like the invisible hand. Right of the, but because I think it's it's, it's a nice distinction by the lawmakers of BioShock to call it the great chain, because Ryan often uses that hand imagery as a negative.

Phil  6:33
Yes, exactly. It's smart. It's very, and we're gonna see that we're gonna see it as part two. And I totally agree. I think the most interesting thing about the speech because the speech is him basically saying farewell to the rest of the world, saying what here's the plan raptures built, we are not going to sit around in your evil society, and we're heading off and doing our own thing. How many pages was that speech? Kevin, do you happen to recall?

Kevin Erhard  7:02
I'm looking at it right now. And how many pages are we talking? He's going on for a while.

Phil  7:07
It goes on for a little while.

Kevin Erhard  7:10
It's about two and a in three quarters of a pages before you get sent it transitions over to Sander Cohen, putting in a little ditty pretty long.

Phil  7:20
And who could forget Sander Cohen? Pretty, pretty long speech. Yeah, yeah. You know, well, I count your blessings instead of sheet my dear friend because this same speech is also given by John Galt in Atlas Shrugged. And it lasts nearly 100 pages.

Kevin Erhard  7:42
Oh my God,

Phil  7:44
when I made 100 pages.

Kevin Erhard  7:47
Anybody ever read that? That book?

Phil  7:50
I I have that's, that's that's the thing. It is just an it's an even in that moment when I was in my 20s and very shook. Here's the whole thing about objectivism as if you're an Objectivist you probably think you you believe that you're a genius. Because Because objectivism is all about the great geniuses we've got the great men we are right and I just like many white men in his mid to late 20s assumed that I was a great man. And with a capital G and a capital M. And even in even in the throes of that level of delusional confidence. I still halfway through that speech was like Rand you have got to edit baby. Like it is just it is it's the same thing over and she can non stop drilling the same points home. And it's like this is the and if I had a John

Kevin Erhard  8:57
Shirley wrote the John Galt speech abridged. Pretty much.

Phil  9:01
I mean, it's just yeah, this this is this is and this would have done it. Two and a half pages of like, blah, blah, blah. We're leaving. Goodbye. And as you pointed out, still kind of a long speech. Shang speech. Yes. Still could have used some editing a little bit. It could have been a lot worse is what I guess I'm trying to say. John, surely, or author seems to know that. Yeah. So yeah.

Kevin Erhard  9:29
Yeah. So we, after we get through the speeches, we get into because this that this, this chapter is from Bill McDonough, his point of view, and he's not a fan of Sander Cohen. So he's like, yeah, the music was boring. And then he starts just looking around at rapture at the thing that he helped builds. And they comment, this is where it kind of gets into the commentary on the art style. of the city where a lot of the design was from was from the World's Fair of 1934. And then also, like art deco, where you have human like, people at their at like peak physical condition. And we talked about that. Yeah, yeah, at Zenith relief images of men cheerfully pulling chains decorated the walls everywhere Art Deco Retief trimming often shaped like rays of light emanating from glistening knobs, intricate borders evoking both the end of the industrial scale of the modern world and the temples of Babylon and Egypt. Which is that's a really great description. That's like a good visual of like, absolutely the the way our DECO, you know, kind of vibes.

Phil  10:52
Yeah, it's that it's that classical men with muscles on top of muscles on top of muscles. And, you know, Son God, paganism basically. Yeah, in many ways. And, but But the God that you're worshiping is yourself, right? For all intents and purposes, I am that man, I am that. That great, man. If only metaphorically, you don't see as many bodybuilding Objectivists as you would think. No, although I can speak from experience. There are a few that get really caught up in the physical aspect of it. There. I've met a couple that were like that were like, exercise fanatics. They believe sincerely that was part of it. You know, it's like yeah, to perfect your body and your mind.

Kevin Erhard  11:42
Like it's almost like the but but I'll say that. You get people like Joe Rogan, you know who yes, I would not accuse him of being objectivist because that assumes that he has that presupposes that. Yeah, that presupposes that he understands things.

Phil  12:03
Right. Right. I feel like every time I imagined Joe Rogan, I just see a wave of knowledge crashing over him. And then the wave pulling back and he is somehow dry. He just he has to have everybody in the room. He wants everyone at the table and he will gain nothing from the experience. Nothing at all. Nothing at all. Yeah, we also get told in this this section, a lot of people have died to this reality happen for a lot of ungenerous reasons. You know, it's just cheap. They talk about people being lazy and cutting corners and all that stuff, which all people cutting corners in an unregulated, you know, society. Who would have thunk it? But then, but then it cuts to our favorite Fontane. No, fucking fun team

Kevin Erhard  13:04
Fontane. Yeah,

Phil  13:05
yes. Who is actually doing a pretty good job running this fishing business.

Kevin Erhard  13:11
Yeah, he he, this guy can just kill his way up the ladder.

Phil  13:16
He's actually it's like, he's, uh, you just imagine like, he must be a really good manager. Like he's actually

Kevin Erhard  13:21
he's very good at managing people.

Phil  13:23
I mean, if it weren't for the fact that the job is a con, in the sense that like, he is not who he says he is. He stole the job.

Kevin Erhard  13:31
And he's just an absolutely violent murder of a man.

Phil  13:34
Right? If it weren't for all of that. It would just be the story of a guy who was like, Well, I've got my little fishing business and I made good. It's really, really funny.

Kevin Erhard  13:46
Frank Orland became Frank Fontane with we have no idea if he has any real fishing experience before that, but he inherits a business by way of murder.

Phil  13:59
Yeah, he murders his way to the middle

Kevin Erhard  14:03
to the middle. He's a he's a murderous middleman and he's wandering around in the North Atlantic and he's been sending letters down to rapture to try to get Andrew Ryan's attention because basically they do the fishing and then they sell the fish to the the wrap to rapture basically some contacts that are got that go back down to rapture and he's been sending these letters down and he is clearly finally got caught their attention because who but Sullivan shows a Sullivan our former cap, not up

Phil  14:45
no fucking cough you know, the day that my fiancee told me that the departed was one of her favorite movies and that she could watch it day in and day out. Yeah, she didn't care how depressing it was that was the day that I called my mother and I was like I think I'm gonna propose think

Unknown Speaker  15:07
I think I found the one thing I found.

Phil  15:11
But a Sullivan the co op. He they have a discussion he warns Fontanne that there's no leaving. Yeah, if you join rapture, there's no getting out. So if you if you you're in, you're in. If you're in you're in and and then he admits that. Ryan has been getting his letters and is kind of impressed. Yeah. And so basically they they he says, do so we're extending an invite Fontane says well, when do we start and they go right the fuck now bitch.

Kevin Erhard  15:44
Get in in this sub pops up.

Phil  15:48
So Fontane is offered a place in Rapture, so he's and he's already made it clear that his whole thing is he wants to ingratiate himself. Yeah, somehow take advantage of the system, get some money and get the fuck out of there.

Kevin Erhard  16:00
That's his plan. It's

Phil  16:01
a pretty good plan for now.

Kevin Erhard  16:02
He wants to do exactly what it says on the tin. He has. He wants to con the billionaire out of money.

Phil  16:10
Which is, which is the American dream. That's

Kevin Erhard  16:13
really honestly, have you seen billionaires lately? That's a noble goal.

Phil  16:18
That's that is what you want to do. Like Fontaine is still our hero. There's no way around this. He is still the most admirable person in this book. Now.

Kevin Erhard  16:28
Let's be honest. He's a murderer. Oh, yeah, sure. But set let's let's put a pin in the murder.

Phil  16:36
All things being equal, though. Oh,

Kevin Erhard  16:39
we're rooting for Frank Fonz.

Phil  16:41
I'm running for Fontane and I am and if you're reading this book, now if you say to me, I'm not rooting for any of these people are a fine killjoy. But yeah, like come on. But if you but if you're going to root for any of them, if you say anyone root for the guy, then Fontane, or like one of the random workers who has a pipe wrench and a chance to murder one of the billionaires and I'm calling bullshit. Then your then your your heart is in the wrong place. Oh, one second, I'm gonna get a refill this wine. Well, they don't tell you is if you want to successfully co host a podcast of any stripe. You need lots of right bank Bordeaux. So it's a very important thing. It's a super important thing. The and the tannins. Keep your back straight.

Kevin Erhard  17:32
I keep your back straight. Your your tongue wet. Yes.

Phil  17:35
Until you've had too much and then they dry that they dries that shit out real fast. But yeah,

Kevin Erhard  17:41
keep that keep that that wet. Tongue wet.

Phil  17:48
Cool. That's, that's another t shirt.

Kevin Erhard  17:50
That's another t shirt right there. Keep that wet tongue wet. Keep young wet.

Phil  17:55
The way I see it as you're a teetotaller, so I have to make sure to wine for both drinks for

Kevin Erhard  18:00
both of us. Please, I I encourage you. i

Phil  18:04
That's what I'm here for Matt and it's worked so far.

Kevin Erhard  18:06
It is it's it's a good it's a good it's a good one to punch.

Phil  18:10
Exactly. Alright, and that brings us to chapter seven.

Kevin Erhard  18:16
Yeah, we're in 1948 at Sinclair solutions down in Rapture. And we're Have we met Sinclair yet? We I think he's been referenced but I don't think Sinclair's

Phil  18:30
been referenced. I don't think we've met him yet. Yeah. So Tim and Sullivan.

Kevin Erhard  18:35
Him and Sullivan are talking about Tenenbaum. Tenenbaum, who is a very big character in Bioshock. One and Sinclair is actually a one of the protagonists of not protagonist, but so far I've played been playing BioShock two, he kind of fills your, the void as the the voice that's helping you. Oh, okay. That's yeah, interesting. Yeah. So he he's not, he's not dead as of Bioshock. Two. All right, takes place like 2020 years after this. So

Phil  19:13
I kind of get to that game. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Tenenbaum is a well, she's a doctor, she's a scientist, and that all they know really for sure is that her work has something to do with heredity. Yes. Which to me anyway, and that's just a big old plaques on Blair lights. She's

Kevin Erhard  19:35
She's a German scientist who's been doing a lot of genetics and heredity research. Yeah. dicey.

Phil  19:47
She Yeah, it's it's, it's already it's already problematic.

Kevin Erhard  19:52
thing. It's like It's like clearly like, like the US government. Operation Paperclip, just What are you guys doing? Right, but rapture is like, you know what? We got our own paperclip. Right here. Doctor we had a bomb.

Phil  20:09
Yeah, we can she's the only paperclip. We need

Kevin Erhard  20:12
we she's the only paperclip we need at. Its real. Yeah.

Phil  20:18
But yeah, it's it and she hasn't even done anything yet. And you're already starting to feel kind of itchy in terms of like, oh boy, this could be this could be real bad. So they're talking about whether or not she's worth having on the team and I this quote, to me is kind of important. Say but 10 Tenenbaum, Sinclair went on, she's taking blood from people by the bucket, and more and one of them collapsed. You're afraid you're you're afraid you're doing something unethical? This was a word that didn't get too much use and rapture. Sinclair blinked. Huh? unethical, Hal, Chief. I've been on the same pages as Andrew about altruism, all that stuff for years. Why do you think I was running so early? Worrying about ethics? I don't do it. I don't do strike it rich. And that too, and that's a big one. That's another thing. I keep bringing up the parallels between this in Atlas Shrugged. Altruism is one of those bad words. Yes. You know, big because the whole idea is that altruism is charity that is forced upon you. You're forced

Kevin Erhard  21:25
to be good. Yeah. And that's and that's something that that comes up later is I believe Ryan, Andrew Ryan specifically says oh, yeah, charity is communism. He Yeah, that's like a literal line. Yes, it says,

Phil  21:44
he says and this is and that's the part where you flash the words across the screen. This is what objectivist actually believe. Yes, it is. It is absolutely insane.

Kevin Erhard  21:56
So he's like, he's, he's like, so afraid. It's weird, because Sinclair is so afraid of, of using the word unethical, but then he's also like, but what if she goes too far and be like, Well, I don't know. Sinclair, what would you call that?

Phil  22:10
Right? Right. And that's the that's the tap dancing that these people in this society have to go through. Because on one hand, ethics is not a thing for them. They don't believe it. Because if you if you're talking about something being unethical, that means that by you know, just by virtue of it being an ethics situation, you have to do something about it. Yeah. And it's a free market society that we don't touch that shit. It's unregulated and so there is no such thing as ethics for us but we're worried that this person who is not see adjacent Korean bad and and so he's just playing this funny he's doing this funny little dance trying to get a get the right words in right to express himself without sounding like he isn't a true believer in right laws. That's a great way of getting your ass ostracized and not kicked out knocking catechism never going anywhere. But they can sure as hell fire you and you're stuck down there with no job and no means of supporting yourself and no way of getting out. Yeah, so already you're getting that kind of you know, dictatorial USSR kind of thing going on

Kevin Erhard  23:34
right? You're also getting so Ryan Bryan is worried about the communist infiltrators constant right? Here's the funny thing is the workers there they talk about how the workers have started talking about you know their troubles without any like, without any prompt without any interest there's natural there's no there's no you know, there's no das copy tall you know, lying around the it's just like hey, the workers are unhappy and now they're starting to talk and Ryan is worried you know Sinclair and solvent help talk about how Ryan is worried about you know, stuff like that they've been hearing things yada yada yada, but it's just funny because like, even in the it's like, even in the darkness like there's like a little pinpoint of light that's just like kinda like no matter how much you try to put it out. Oh, there it is.

Phil  24:32
It's almost as if people will fight back when stepped upon no matter what your stupid you know, fantasy world creed. Happens to believe right? But but you know what, you know what he for all this stuff that Ryan is worried about? You know what he isn't worried about?

Kevin Erhard  24:52
A coca plant. He's not worried about cocaine. There is

Phil  24:56
a there is a there is a person down there who has set aside a piece of brass To grow coca leaves and start manufacturing cocaine, Ryan's fine with that fried

Kevin Erhard  25:06
may use drugs.

Phil  25:08
Yeah, he's good with that.

Kevin Erhard  25:10
If you don't want drugs, then they won't buy them and then they will buy them the the free market will dictate that.

Phil  25:17
Exactly, exactly. That's just and he will and He will succeed or fail based entirely on those stats that is it.

Kevin Erhard  25:26
All right, so that that takes us to a year later. Yeah, when the scene change and Frank Fontaine is has already set up Fontane fisheries he is Yeah, yeah. stablished his storefront

Phil  25:41
wasted absolutely no time it was kind of makes Andrew Ryan nervous. It won't be the last time that Ryan is nervous about Fontaine's work, but it's definitely the first time with this. And this is the first time that the two of them meet actually.

Kevin Erhard  25:58
Mm hmm. Yeah. And so basically what because what happens is so it's it's almost like Ryan trying to reassert some sort of dominance over Frank Fontane or assert some dominance because they've met they haven't really gotten to know each other that well sees

Phil  26:17
absolutely there to remind him who's the big boss?

Kevin Erhard  26:21
He's the Alpha he is he is the fake wolf science alpha in this.

Phil  26:27
Yes, exactly. That's exactly what he is. And, and it's kind of hilarious because Fontaine just right off the bat sort of like, openly mocks him, if not mocks him kind of just disdains him, everything. Everything Ryan says, you can just kind of hear Fontanne going, you just knew Oh, you worried about that? It's it's kind of hilarious. And in my head, I was like, that might be a mistake, but Ryan actually respects him for it. Yeah. That's stupid.

Kevin Erhard  27:02
That's stupid. And Ryan says something. Ryan has a decent line in here where he's talking about contraband. And even even ideas can be contraband. He mentions which is kind of setting the tone for where Ryan's character is going. Because Ryan, as he is right now is not going to be the same man in like, in book time in like seven years or something like that. He Is he is he he'll believe he is still the pure objectivist but he is he has kind of fallen far. Just right into that that it's mostly basically kind of like a mix of the right wing statist you know, where he thinks he's objectivist he's not Yeah,

Phil  27:56
yeah, in the same way that that the right will say we're all about fewer laws, and then they try to pass a bunch of laws outlawing things that they don't like Yes. And he kind of like starts to collapse in on himself like a paranoid Flon. He's just he's just a just he's it's eating him up. The Red Scare shit is eating him up. He's surrounded by incompetence, you know, and right. And he's just trying to protect himself in a way Yeah, yeah. As a result as as we go along. He starts becoming less a free market and more dictatorial. Sure. which I would argue is always inevitable.

Kevin Erhard  28:46
Yeah, it's gonna get there eventually tends to follow the the other thing is Fontane is is like, Hey, I should have a seat on the council. Like yeah, and Ryan's like, no.

Phil  29:01
Yeah, it was it was kind of like Fontaine's ultimate like, I gotta try.

Kevin Erhard  29:05
Shoot my shot. Yeah, Wayne Gretzky, you know, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take

Phil  29:11
exactly, yeah, he's a guy fucking tribe.

Kevin Erhard  29:14
You know, that guy from the future.

Phil  29:17
I really admire his future game with

Kevin Erhard  29:19
his stick had been with the stick and the puck in the ice. Yeah. So another year goes by now it's 1949. And it's, it's kind of it's, it's a conversation and it's, it's between Elaine and Bill. Bill McDonogh. And Elaine is voicing her concern.

Phil  29:40
Yes. And first off at this point, Elaine is pregnant Yes. And she's so that's that's where a lot of concern comes from she's like worried about raising a kid in Rapture. What's that going to be like? And Bill's like super confident. Everything's going to be great because bill as well. See, yeah, he isn't a true believer per se. Right. He's just grateful. Yeah. You know, very

Kevin Erhard  30:09
grateful that rock that Andrew Ryan gave him this shot, you know?

Phil  30:13
That's exactly it. He's just he's grateful for the opportunity. And he's so he's loyal. Right? He's not necessarily and again, we'll see this more and more as we go. He doesn't necessarily believe fully in all the, the the politics behind it,

Kevin Erhard  30:29
right. Because when making when presented with an option, when presented with the choice to do the, the self serving profitable thing, and to do the right thing. Bill at his heart is going to do the right thing. Yeah, he does. And he does. There's, there's there will be a few times where that that kind of comes to play. But yeah, so that's their, you know, it's kind of a it's kind of a rough, like, it's like a reassuring Yeah, things will be fine kind of conversation. And

Phil  31:04
it helps you worry, by the way, don't you if you're if you're worried that just because this is like a vaguely futuristic, late 40s, early 50s scan of world and you're worried that bill isn't going to like talk down to his pregnant wife, don't you worry.

Kevin Erhard  31:20
Bill is you worry bill is totally still a misogynist.

Phil  31:24
Oh, my God. The way he talks to her at the time, really, and I and I get it I don't blame the author like he's probably right. Like these kind of guys would totally talk this way to their wives. Does it make it a hell of a lot easier to read?

Kevin Erhard  31:39
No. No. We cut over to we're on a train now with Stanley Poole who his character he said a on the tear list of characters. He's one that's not going to show up that often. But he's here now and he's a reporter. And he's there just to do a puff piece for Carson fiddle. Who is designing the amusement park for for Andrew Ryan. And there they talk about like the the not animatronics the Yeah, animatronic? Yeah, the animatronics that Fiddle is designing. Fennel is kind of like a you like he would have been a Disney type, you know, an imagineer type for Disney. Because he has a lot of a lot of visions for what he wants this amusement park to be.

Phil  32:39
Yeah, there's I totally agree. This is a very Disney character. He's your uncle Walt. He's like friendly and, and kind of a visionary and kind of, you know, a child at heart. Sure, dude. But you can but he's also very, very much a businessman.

Kevin Erhard  32:59
Yeah, exactly. But the meat of it is that pool overhears a conversation between Ryan and Prentice mill. And, basically Prentiss mill is complaining that Augustus Sinclair is trying to like edge him out of the train business. And Ryan's just like bots, you know, he's he's just keeping you off balance, perfectly normal business tactic, blah, blah, blah. It's like, and so basically, pool is just kind of listening into into that. And Ryan turns to pool and says, pool, you remember our talk? Nothing unauthorized? Yeah. And it's like, pool can't it's like a basically the point of this section is like, okay, yeah, it's already it's already the foundation is already rotten.

Phil  33:53
It's already right. You know, it

Kevin Erhard  33:55
was somebody who's talking about freedom, you know,

Phil  33:58
if it only if it stuck to if the whole plan stuck to if the worst things that happened, were Ryan, finding just people who were essentially his friends and said, he's a genius. I want them down there. Right. And and like, if it stuck to that, then you know, who is who couldn't be, you know, who wouldn't do something? Sure. You want to be surrounded by your friends, but already before anything, even marginally heavy happens, it's clear that he's is the he doesn't really give a shit about integrity in the news. He wants to know, he wants the story. He wants to tell the story. He wants to dictate the narrative. Right?

Kevin Erhard  34:39
Right. And what's interesting is he he believes he can because he is the owner of the newspaper, you know, right.

Phil  34:48
That's his right to he sees he sees nothing. He

Kevin Erhard  34:52
sees there's nothing untoward about that. He's not the government, and he's not the government telling him what he can and cannot print you is the owner of the newspaper telling a reporter, his reporter that what he can and cannot print? Which is it's one of those weird dicey, slippery slope type of things where, okay, well, in the absence of an actual government,

Phil  35:16
it's, it's it is it is tech without any context to surround it. Yeah, it is technically correct.

Kevin Erhard  35:24
The kind of correct exit

Phil  35:28
without any kind of context to guide it without me mentioning of the fact that this is the only newspaper in the area that for all intents and purposes in Rapture, he is the monarch with like all that other shit, right without all of that other shit. Yes, I suppose he is. Right.

Kevin Erhard  35:47
Right. What? So we move on to quite possibly the most disturbing scene so far. Oh, god. Yeah. Which is the examination of Elaine Bill's wife by Dr. Su Chong and Dr. Tennant bomb.

Phil  36:06
It is really upsetting. It's very upsetting

Kevin Erhard  36:09
Sue Chong basically is is examining her as if she's cattle. Yeah.

Phil  36:15
They're both they both if I just kind of imagine, because the fact of the matter is, is the regular doctor isn't available, right? And so if Bill basically says well, you know, when one doctors just as good as their doctors, Doctor professionals, he got his PhD in literature, so he's qualified to give you a pap smear. And that's just that's basically what happens and they and they, I just imagined it as them like, yanking up her skirt and staring at her private parts and I wasn't too far off. No, no, you were not there. Sue Shang and Tenenbaum are very, very comically almost a unfeeling clinical and an exactly. Yes. And exactly the team you need for your genetic murder laboratory.

Kevin Erhard  37:09
Yeah, I mean, I cold I would actually go so far as to say is that soo Shang is is hateful. He has like, yes, hate in his heart for children, children specific children specifically. So yeah, they they're it's not a great examination. But what it leads to is Bill seeing and he's kind of lingering Well, Elaine is getting dressed. And he sees just this grotesque genetic abomination that that su Chong and Tennant bomb and Gil Alexander and and Ryan are just kind of like talking over and they're talking about like the transcript for they're basically getting down into there. They Sue Chong and Tenenbaum having nature versus nurture debate. Yeah. In like about whether this about like, whether they're, they're correct.

Phil  38:10
Yeah. Yeah, the plan here, and it was kind of comical, in a way like is he's literally like, his wife was literally just kind of like, visually violated by these two psychopath doctors, right. And then like, she goes to get dressed and he wanders around. And suddenly the two psychopath doctors are looking into this glass tube with Ryan. It's like, well, on to the next thing now. Yeah. And basically, the idea is that they're Ryan's looking for procedures on the spit, like the person and the two. There are parts without the metal, they're metal pieces that seem to be fused, right body. It's basically a proto Big Daddy. Yeah. And, and Ryan's looking for procedures that are will make workers work harder, longer hours without complaining without, you know, without rest without food. You know, that kind of thing. Right? Which is a great sign, which is just sign that

Kevin Erhard  39:09
sign that everything's all right, you know,

Phil  39:11
everything's doing fine. Everything

Unknown Speaker  39:12
he's doing.

Phil  39:13
He wants what's best for his workers, and for society at large horse and yeah, this is great. It's

Kevin Erhard  39:19
just feeling great. And okay, so I'm gonna pause for a minute minute and talk about Dr. Sue Chong. And please. So the game is not great at it. I wish the novel was also better at the way su Chung's dialogue is written. Because yeah, it is not great.

Phil  39:50
It is not and it's made worse if you're listening to the auto

Kevin Erhard  39:55
it is bad if you're listening.

Phil  39:58
For anyone who doesn't recognize I get what we're talking about. Su Shang is Korean. Yeah. And that mostly mostly in the book pops up as kind of weirdly stilted dialogue and a way that is written in such a in such a way that is clearly English. Is this person second language. Sure. And then at one point they mentioned that he's mixing is ours and his ELS up. Yeah. Which I'm not not great. And that's already bad enough. But then with the audio book, of course, the the reader chooses to go ahead and do that for the character, even in places where it is not mentioned in the book, right. I guess for consistency. Sure. I

Kevin Erhard  40:51
guess it's not great. Like, here's the thing. I agree. It's just your generic stereotypical Asian accents that anybody would have put on in like, it pre 2000s comedy to try to be funny. Right. Right. And it's not

Phil  41:10
and it's really for gag. Yeah. It To its credit. But yeah,

Kevin Erhard  41:15
yeah. And he's also described as having a thin Asian face.

Phil  41:22
I forgot about which

Kevin Erhard  41:23
come on, man. Like, there are people who get like two sentences of description, and Dr. Su Shang is he's, he's got a thin Asian face

Phil  41:33
than Asian face. Okay. And you know, if you've got a thin Asian face, you know what the other characteristics are? Come on. Yeah, it's finished this book.

Kevin Erhard  41:42
Let's move on. So for, and that's the thing for everything good that this author does. It still, you know, it's still not perfect. And there are some really rough depictions of problems. We got some problems. And here's the thing. It's the way that he has some of the men talking to women in the book. It's fine. It's period appropriate. The the misogyny patriarchal thing is rampant even in in a city like rapture where everybody's supposed to be, quote, unquote, equal.

Phil  42:22
Right. Right. Especially, especially then let's face facts,

Kevin Erhard  42:26
especially that, but yes, but in this instance, it's just a it's like, an unforced error. You know?

Phil  42:33
Yeah, that no one no one made you do no one made you. There's no, there's no, you know, you didn't need to make a character whose English was like stereotypical, Cole Porter. Anything goes bad. Sure. It's, it's, that's my little musical reference for the evening. Yeah. But it was just it's yeah, it's it's a real, it's distracting on top of everything else.

Kevin Erhard  43:00
So John doesn't show up. Often that I mean, he shows up often, but not often enough to like, make it the biggest problem ever. But

Phil  43:11
he does. But here's the thing. And honestly, and this is my privilege. But if it weren't for the I don't think I'd notice it as much if it weren't for the fact that he's actually a pretty interesting character. Sure. He's a really interesting character. So you're right. He doesn't show up all that often. But he does show up. He says some kind of horrifying things. Oh, he

Kevin Erhard  43:32
is. And he is absolutely horrifying. And it's a great villain. It's yeah. villainous, terrific, you know? Yeah.

Phil  43:41
But he could but but yeah, but so. So having that moment in there, it makes it's like, it's like trying to drive stick when you haven't done it in 10 years. You're like, oh, I can't get started here. Right. It's just a mess. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, yeah. I also saw that.

Kevin Erhard  44:00
So we basically were they we cut back basically, Bill and Elaine are now at Fort frolic, which is the the entertainment district so to speak, is not impressed. Yeah. She's not impressed. She's not impressed by the strip club.

Phil  44:19
Just not impressed by the gambling Hall. She's

Kevin Erhard  44:21
not impressed by the gambling halls. It's basically just like, a Yeah, because it's kind of like the lowest common denominator of entertainment has has started popping up and nothing against strip clubs. Oh, there's

Phil  44:36
absolutely nothing wrong with either something.

Kevin Erhard  44:40
That's something you like but it's it's also like, basically, the ones that drive the most capital are the ones that are popping up. It's not it's not like the artistic entertainment except for Sandra Cohen's bullshit. And that's only because Andrew Ryan happens to like him

Phil  44:59
and It's an it's an it's that's the thing for all the talk about the free market the free market is garbage a lot of time in you and you can see that in real life in things like for example VHS versus Betamax. That'll Cherie, why did VHS beat out Betamax? Because porn took the VHS porn shows where the industry on the whole for the most part decided we're gonna put our products on VHS. And for that reason, it was just majority people were buying VHS.

Kevin Erhard  45:35
VHS was slightly cheaper to produce than than Betamax. And it didn't matter. It was lower. It was a low it was a lower quality than Betamax was but who cared. Betamax saving some money. Yeah. And then the the Betamax format. And the beta format went on to have professional applications. But it was never a consumer applicant. And fact I used a beta. Even in film school, I was still using. I was not like the Betamax tapes, but I was using data lineage tapes to lay lay stuff back to me. So yeah, a beta, the beta stuff became a professional application. Mainly, the technology and it just didn't have a consumer application because VHS rolled the day.

Phil  46:24
Right? And we're seeing stuff like that with this where it's like, yeah, you've got your musicals they go to see shows that kind of thing. But the vast majority of the entertainment is gambling and tits and ass ah,

Kevin Erhard  46:39
they pass I love bill. They passed them liquor and drug Emporium les Marquis de Puck, which was quite thronged.

Phil  46:49
That's where everybody is. And the gambling especially is very telling because you know, that you're dealing with denizens who were dedicated entirely to making as much money as possible, striking it rich and that kind of thing. Sure. So even in their even in their leisure time, they're going to be interested in trying to make money. Yeah. Or losing money and not caring about it. It really does say a lot about who you're dealing

Kevin Erhard  47:17
with here. Right. But while Elaine is not impressed, Bill is kind of like taking it in like Yeah, I did this this it's like it raptures alive and it's it's energetic, and it's it's vibrant. And this is me, you know, I I helped make this happen.

Phil  47:37
Yeah, he's proud of it. He's really proud of it. And then as kind of like, a bookend to that they end up going to see another Sander Cohen musical. And Bill isn't impressed. And I don't think anybody would be the all they do a lot of John surely does a great job of like, showing you the art that these people are creating that the suppose Id geniuses are making sure, and it's all very stilted and shitty, yeah. And, but it's not so shitty, that I like read it, I read the lyrics to the songs and everything like that. And, and I want to be I do want to be fair when it comes to good storytelling and that sort of thing. So if he were just taking sheet, cheap pot shots or something like that, I would be like, Look, I might happen to agree with him. But those that's kind of that's a that's a cheap shot. And it's boring. The lyrics and the work is just good enough that you can absolutely see this kind of thing getting made. Yeah, I know what I'm talking about. Because it is now November. And in November and December me and my fiance watch nothing but shitty Christmas movies. It's become a tradition for us. And these are some of the worst scripts with some of the worst actors with some of the laziest, most talentless hack of directors. And they get made. Yeah, they get made. So and this is not as bad as that, right? But it's still pretty bad. So you can kind of imagine again, so

Kevin Erhard  49:16
I have a I have a friend who was in talks with lifetime or one of those channels to direct a movie like that. And apparently, it's like, they give you they give you everything and it's like it's like two weeks. And it's like here's all the here's like the shot here's the shot charts. Here's all that stuff.

Phil  49:43
Like oh, okay, so there's like no room for the directors to barely even

Kevin Erhard  49:47
have any artistic like input on it. Like they're just there to keep the keep the train moving.

Phil  49:55
Right? Well that that makes a lot of sense because they are you do feel like you're not getting something that's crafted, you feel like a product, right?

Kevin Erhard  50:02
So they don't, they only takes like two weeks to shoot these things again, and then they get them out there in editing and they're up. And that's why there's, that's why you have there's a few of these networks that make a lot of these movies. It feels like there's 1000 of these types of movies,

Phil  50:22
many of them. And it's kind of hilarious, because when we started this last year, because in September and October, we watched nothing but horror films here. And then in November, Emily said, Let's watch some holiday films. Because we're both as much as we we both love Halloween and we like spooky shit. We're also actually total crazy people for Christmas. Sure. As as as secular as we are. And like we like the season. We really enjoy Christmas. Yeah, it's it's nice. And so we ended up somehow watching two months of these movies. And some of them are offensively bad. Others are just, you know, boring, and just not well made. And every now and then you get one that you're like, actually, that wasn't. That wasn't the worst, you know, it wasn't the worst. And it's kind of hilarious. Because as we've done them, I have I am I never watched these movies before, right? Never before last year. And as we've watched them, I've started to broaden my repertoire of what I've seen. And the first few movies we watched are actually pretty popular movies in that world. And they're called the Christmas prints. Okay, it's a trilogy. Sure. And they are, I hated them. She made me watch all three of them in a row. And I hated them. And now though, over a year later, I have found myself based on the stuff where what we've watched, I find myself thinking about a Christmas prints and being like, you know, that really wasn't that bad comparatively. No,

Kevin Erhard  52:01
wasn't that bad?

Phil  52:02
Yeah. And I start to realize there's an audience for these movies. Yeah. And I'm starting to become that.

Kevin Erhard  52:09
The audience Excuse me. I think it's, you know, what it is a part of it is it's, they're, they're not that expensive, expensive to make. No, the money that they probably get on just like the ad runs alone. During first Ryan is probably enough to cover whatever the expense was.

Phil  52:29
Every now and then they'll have some sort of, you know, weird be list cameo. Sure. Although one of the ones it was one of the worst Christmas movies I've ever seen, but it had Joey Fatone in it. Oh, yeah. And I found myself and he and I remember going Joey Fatone. What the fuck is he doing? But he was actually kind of funny and charming. Like he was actually having fun. He was trying his damndest to have fun. Yeah. So anytime he got into the scene, we started going, Joe is here. Joey's here, we got excited. Yeah. And I gave the movie. I rate the movies and I gave it half a star. And I made it very clear that that's half star belong to Joey Fatone.

Kevin Erhard  53:13
That's That's Joey star. That is Joey star. If you hadn't

Phil  53:17
put that cameo in? Yeah. Their budgets are weird like that. Because like on one hand, yeah, you're right. They clearly aren't going through these very fast that it probably is just a shoestring budget. On the other hand, they'll occasionally have these kind of people. It's like this person used to have a career. Yeah, like money. Most of the money must have gone to this right. Or some sort of deal where like, they get a They get a percentage. Yeah, something

Kevin Erhard  53:44
like that. Hey, slide them in there. They had nothing to say.

Phil  53:48
Give them a producer credit or something. Yeah.

Kevin Erhard  53:51
But anyway, that's anyway miss Christmas movie. Talking about Christmas movies. If you if you

Phil  53:57
want to if you want to. If you want to listen to a podcast of me and Emily discussing the horrifying holiday movies.

Kevin Erhard  54:03
Oh my god, you guys do that? That would be I think we could do that. Actually. It could just be a mini series that runs when during the holidays. Yeah,

Phil  54:13
yeah. We'll run it will run it will run it. November through December. Something like that. Season after season. That

Kevin Erhard  54:19
would be amazing.

Phil  54:25
Hello, all right. Where were we

Kevin Erhard  54:26
we were tight. We're bill is doing something down in the heat loss monitoring station down in Festus, which is a nice reference, like calling it Hephaestus is cool. Yeah. Who is like he's a he's a Greek god of blacksmiths.

Phil  54:44
He was the smithy of his God. Yes, he was lame. And he was and I don't mean, I'm not passing a judgement call. He his legs did not work. Sure. And, and he was the ugliest of the gods and he was married to Aphrodite. Who cheated on him constantly?

Unknown Speaker  55:01
Oh, but yeah. Okay.

Phil  55:05
It's a cool reference. It's

Kevin Erhard  55:05
a fun cool reference. Yeah, yeah. And I believe his hammer is you find his hammer in Hades. If you're playing Hades, the when really upgrade the upgrade item. If you want to upgrade your weapon for that run, it's you get her Festus hammer, I believe, if I recall correctly. Anyway, yeah. So what is Bill doing down in

Phil  55:33
bliss with Ryan again? Ryan wants his opinion. They've been it's by at this point. It's 1950. Yep. And the city's been settled for about two years, bills baby's been delivered, you know, everyone's kind of settled in. And Ryan is wanting bills opinion on just various projects it at different points in the book, Bill, basically, it shows a bill Bill's kind of sick of being Ryan's Spaniel, racially, he kind of like he kind of clicks his heels and Bill is expected to follow along. Yeah. Ryan's becoming way more paranoid about you know, parasites parasites. Yeah. Yeah, he's hearing rumors of unions. And on top of that, and to make things better make matters worse. They need more workers. Yeah. Because wouldn't you know it? This is not exactly a society where skilled blue collar labor laborers are thrilled to come in and join on the fun

Kevin Erhard  56:32
and join on the fun and also not get paid, because there's no minimum wage, which will come up later. Right. But yeah, so. So. And this is this is, this is hilarious, because bill proposes to Ryan that you can't just tamp down on these ideas. They have to just go ahead and thrive in the marketplace of ideas. Ryan this convinces Andrew Ryan to back off on on like, like forcing down the union talk.

Phil  57:04
Yeah. Yeah. He uses he uses like he uses like a dark net buzzword. And it actually words like

Kevin Erhard  57:14
objectivism, judo. That is Andrew, right.

Phil  57:19
Yeah. And Bill and you get the real distinction. That bill doesn't give a shit. No, he just wants Ryan to shut the fuck up for a minute just

Kevin Erhard  57:26
shut up about the goddamn genocide, Jesus Christ Ryan.

Phil  57:30
And Ryan actually says he says how he's talking about and Ryan admits to also not liking Fontane. He's not happy with all of his stuff, even though he isn't doing anything wrong as far as you can tell, but he doesn't like him. He claims that he likes competition quote within reason, right? That doesn't sound very free market to me.

Kevin Erhard  57:55
When reasons hilarious, given some of them later scenes.

Phil  58:00
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's gonna basically any excuse. He basically says that he's worried about Frank's connection to the outside

Kevin Erhard  58:07
world because the fishermen are the only ones who technically leave Rapture. Like, it's like the fishermen kind of go outside of the city to catch their fish. And other than other than Fontane, the only other person who, who goes to the surface, I think, is Bill and Sullivan occasionally.

Phil  58:29
Right, right. Every now and every now and then. Yeah, and only on business kind of trips. And it's it's it's really funny because he's just the idea of people leaving is so distasteful to him, not just because of the aspect of like bringing back contraband, like he says ideas or contraband, Bibles, union papers, you know, stuff like that. But just he sees people leaving as quitters, right? He when people want to leave, they want to go that's not working out for them, and he loads them as quitters. But instead of actually letting them go, he forces them to stay right. So Bill's trying to like and Bill's trying to calm him down. It's like you said he tells him like, Hey, we got to just people are gonna talk they're gonna bitch. Just let it go. Let it go. And Ryan kind of questions Bill's loyalty for a moment says Who do you do you? Do you still believe in this? And I was like, Absolutely. 100%

Kevin Erhard  59:33
I still believe my way. Yeah.

Phil  59:37
Yeah. Yeah. And then and then and then Ryan comes up with this great idea. With a capital G. He says I plan to start a new program of civic education. Banners a great many more of them educational announcements on television and public address, and billboards. I'm bringing in someone to help us train them to see that the world outside rapture is the real prison and rapture is real freedom? Oh boy,

Kevin Erhard  1:00:06
enter. Great. Enter Dr. Sophia lamb,

Phil  1:00:11
Dr. Lamb. Now this is an interesting character a very interesting she

Kevin Erhard  1:00:15
is a psychiatrist. Yes. And she believes the same thing that Ryan believes that society is sick. And she she actually believes that we're the the world a person, she would give the diagnosis of suicidal.

Phil  1:00:35
Right? And that was a great line.

Kevin Erhard  1:00:37
Yeah. But basically, we have Ryan is is interviewing Dr. Lam, she was she had been in Japan, when one of the bombs dropped, right. So she saw firsthand and that a lot of her some of her clients so to speak, were killed in the, in the, in the dropping of the bomb. And she, you know, there's like, there's immediately a little bit of tension between her and Ryan, because while they have these same views of the outside world that it is poisoned, they have very different points of view on how to fix the outside world or how to fix Rapture. And she's also she also talks about, like, so he goes, it's a pleasure to have you join us in our brave new world. And she goes brave new world, a reader of Shakespeare, the tempest was not. And then he's like, Oh, are you surprised? I'm familiar with Shakespeare? And she says no, you're wealthy man. You can afford to educate yourself. Hmm. And it was not an obvious criticism a little. It's a little jab. Yeah, yet somehow it was condescending. But she smiled and he saw glint of charisma. So yeah, that right away,

Phil  1:02:09
they are immediately immediately.

Kevin Erhard  1:02:11
A little a little tense. And there they talk a little bit more about the, the Hiroshima thing. But yeah, they basically he wants her there as the psychiatrist to talk to the people of Rapture. And also help him come up with some of these educational plans. But also Yeah, just like write up a general report of what's going on in the minds of the people have rapture from her psychiatric point of view.

Phil  1:02:46
And and it's it's such an interesting it just shows you, here's the thing. I like lamb and anyone on our side of the political aisle will like lamb on at least for her politics just for her stance on economic values, stuff like that. Right. But she's just a we will find out she's just as much of a fanatic on a certain level as writers. Equally narcissistic. Yeah, I would argue and on top but despite all of that, Ryan, it just shows you more about how bad Ryan's fucking decision making is. Right? Where it's like she is so clearly the wrong person.

Kevin Erhard  1:03:33
totally the wrong person for this role.

Phil  1:03:36
She doesn't she she hides it, but not well, no. And, and he still says he still gives her a crazy important job, right? Tapping into the pulse of the people of rapture, right? You know, a man who was so paranoid about ideas. He gives that job to her and it's just like, at that point, you're like, what you deserve anything you get. Yeah, this year. Yeah, this

Kevin Erhard  1:04:03
is this is your Come on, man. He really shoots himself in the foot a lot.

Phil  1:04:10
Oh, absolutely. This is Jeff chapter eight. By the way. This is how chapter eight began.

Kevin Erhard  1:04:13
This is how chapter eight begins. Yeah, we we have started Chapter Eight. And now we are at Neptune's bounty, which is where Fontaine's fishery is located. It's kind of that yes, you played by a shock. It's it's kind of an icy level. It's the ice level.

Phil  1:04:29
Yeah, exactly. And and Tenenbaum is interacting with the dock workers out. It's so fucking weird. Tenenbaum. Every time Tenenbaum shows up, I get kind of like ooh, because what kind of fucking weird shits

Kevin Erhard  1:04:50
gonna do so it is one of the dock workers. She was trying to extract semen from the dock worker and the her method of doing That was jamming a needle into his balls. Yeah. And the guy ends up screaming and running out of the clinic with his pants down and a needle in his testicles.

Phil  1:05:17
Right which is just like not only that just shows you how she's a bad doctor like that's that's for a lot of reasons don't get me wrong she's a bad doctor for like you know eugenics style for

Kevin Erhard  1:05:33
Nazi reasons

Phil  1:05:34
yeah yeah but but that's also just like it that's just ignoring Kockums razor so much that it like just like oh we need semen I know what I will do

Kevin Erhard  1:05:49
yeah a needle in the in the testicles

Unknown Speaker  1:05:52
balls right in the balls so

Phil  1:05:53
she's been let go from that particular position she's still in Rapture she's still working but they're not asking her to collect semen sample now.

Kevin Erhard  1:06:02
Please stop collecting semen please please stop. The the the core of this scene though is that she sees a she sees a guy by the name of Stiffy

Phil  1:06:20
which just that come on. That wasn't a coincidence, man. You did that on purpose surely.

Kevin Erhard  1:06:24
Yeah, you did. Who is playing catch with another guy and Stiffy had the nickname because his hands barely works. The one hand didn't work at all the other one only half work but now he's catching and throwing the ball and Tenenbaums like how did that happen? And he tells her the story of getting bit by this sea slug and wouldn't you know it he got bit by the sea slug and his hands worked they healed up quite nicely and and he happens to have the slugs still he kept it because free enterprising man of rapture years he kept it in on it in a bucket filled with seawater because hey, you might be able to sell it that somebody might be

Phil  1:07:13
able to sell it to somebody and that somebody is have recently fired Nazi doctor who is wondering why people looked at her weird for stabbing a man in the testicles to get a semen.

Unknown Speaker  1:07:30
Yeah. So

Phil  1:07:34
so she has acquired one sea slug little 10 GB holding signal you got one

Unknown Speaker  1:07:50
that is her success. Her success.

Kevin Erhard  1:07:52
She gets that sea slug and we cut back to Dr. Lambs office. And basically it's it's the middle of a therapy session. Yeah, and she's with a work with a worker who is regretting like he's clearly regretting a lot. Oh god read study brings his his kids he thought this was going to be like a road to riches thing like the Comstock mine. And then he's he's really laying it all out there. And then he's like, Oh, wait, you work for Ryan. Right? And she's like, Well, yeah, kind of, but you know, everything. Anything you say is going to be confidential. You know, this is just gonna, like he's worried that he's gonna get in trouble. Yeah, it will be in a general report, but there's not gonna be any names or anything. And he like he buttons up. He buttons up. Right away. He's like, Yeah, he's like, Oh, no, no, I wasn't misled. They were straight with me. It's perfectly fine. I'm fine. We're all fine school raw fine here. Thank you. How are you?

Phil  1:09:01
Exactly. Exactly. And this leads to a lamb's the first sign I mentioned before of like this this kind of budding leader in her where she starts to become convinced that she believes that rapture is going to fail. Yeah, she does a little diary entry and she's like pretty much convinced rapture is going to fail. And but after the psychotherapy session, she starts to believe ah, unless I

Kevin Erhard  1:09:29
unless I can can stop it from failing because yeah, it's it shows you writes down. Subjects are typical and mistrust of Ryan and feeling of alienation, social claustrophobia at boiling point for some financial status a key factor higher income show less anxiety. Oh, I mean, God damn.

Phil  1:09:56
Yeah, yeah. So so we're getting we're getting a Orion rifle, if you will. Yeah. I wonder how that's going to go.

Kevin Erhard  1:10:06
I wonder how that's going to go. I wonder if somebody is. We'll see. Meanwhile, that pumping station five, yes. Yeah. Like Donna, this is this is great is is doing some cleanup work and Ryan's like, oh, look, there's a look, there's a puddle of of stuff on the sidewalk. Why is that there fix? You got to make sure you fix that up. And Bill is like, Well, funny, you mentioned that. I wouldn't have to fix it up so often if the factories weren't using such corrosive chemical. Right. Right. And Ryan's like that, that smells like regulation. That smells like radiation to me, Bill.

Phil  1:10:56
And Bill, Bill's very easy. He's doing the tap dance man. He's he's doing what he can. And he says to him, he says, Well, you know, when you think about it, it's good for us to because these same heavily corrosive chemicals are polluting the water. And that could be a problem for us down the line. Yeah, fish. We live in that water and all that, right. And Ryan, who is a well known scientist,

Kevin Erhard  1:11:20
well known scientists like flutes at all. It's fine. That's not

Phil  1:11:23
how it works. couldn't possibly do that. We can't, there's no way you can pollute the water. You can't pollute the water so badly that every fish in existence has a level of mercury in it. That might may or may not be driving us all completely insane as we consume, said fish, Ash mercury. That's just not a thing that happened. That and then as if to prove Bill's point. They they're wandering down the street and there's this storefront that is just flooded with garbage completely. Yeah.

Kevin Erhard  1:11:58
It's two grocery stores. There's one flooded with garbage and then there's another one across the street from it.

Phil  1:12:05
Right. And they have been diversifying. Yeah. As the book says, which you know, you've been basically they own more than one business right grocery stores, one of them. And the other guy the guy who one of the grocery store. Gentleman also owns the cleanup crews around there that clean up the streets. And the and he's charging everyone else a reasonable amount, but his competitor the other grocery store, he's charging an ungodly amount shall never

Kevin Erhard  1:12:34
be Yeah, Shep has bought the the the garbage pickup company. And graven Stein, who is it who is beset by the garbage is like he's just trying to run me out of business. And Ryan is like, all's fair and capitalism and capitalism. Right. And he's like, it's kind of holding his his, you know, suspenders.

Phil  1:13:01
Suspenders, yes. No, and it's kind of hilarious because He clearly doesn't like the guy who is taking advantage. Right. He has a Teske. Right, he sees it as a personal failing. Yeah. And it's like, it made me think of I had a friend who he believed in the whole notion of he was he was really into like, the manly man kind of thing. Sure. And he and he really believed in the notion that like, oh, well you know, when two guys fight it's just a matter of honor. And then when the fights over they can shake hands and be friends because they figured it out. Through you know, honorable fisticuffs and I told I said I don't know what kind of guys you hung out with growing Yeah, you know, anytime someone I knew got his ass beat or anyone else got their SP they just hated the guy even more right? They didn't go well. I lost in in the affair. The fatter route to

Kevin Erhard  1:14:01
coffee. Now let us go friends.

Phil  1:14:04
That's not how this shit works. It's not a so Ryan see? And it's kind of a similar thing. He believes in this mythology of the gentleman. You know, that seems to be what it is like he he loads ship for being a bore and I and a dishonorable person, right? But he's not breaking the

Kevin Erhard  1:14:24
rule and the rules are do whatever you want.

Phil  1:14:27
Pretty much and and then so he tells the guy the guy comes to him says Look, I can't afford this. This isn't fair. I'm doing everything right. And this guy is is fucking me over this isn't this isn't normal competition. This is this is something different. And Ryan says basically says Be a man. Yeah. Deal with it. Deal with it like a man. Yeah. And so the guy great deals with

Kevin Erhard  1:14:53
time deals with like a man and you know how he deals like a man. He goes into his store. He grabs a gun And he shoots ship and murdered a man and like a man and now Ryan Ryan is frustrated now because you're like, wow, now that is against the law. Like that's the one thing that you're not allowed to do is murder.

Phil  1:15:16
And which is so funny to me because it's like, why draw that line?

Kevin Erhard  1:15:20
And I could just imagine Ryan like, throwing his top hat down and stomping out, like, wow, I got a call possible now. And then he doesn't have to call anybody because Greenstein kills himself. Right? And like, like, like a man like a man, like a man. He solves the problem.

Phil  1:15:38
So yeah, he he, he understood the assignment and, and he kills himself. And that is how this ship works. Ultimate lead is how

Kevin Erhard  1:15:47
the rapture works.

Phil  1:15:52
Meanwhile, last lambs, that's how I'm gonna that's how I'm going to introduce every chapter section that has lamb.

Kevin Erhard  1:16:02
Lamb. She's She's basically in another psychotherapy session. Yeah. And

Phil  1:16:09
a woman who has been very kind of gaslit Yeah, how this world was

Kevin Erhard  1:16:14
so marked. It's a woman named Margie. And it's a it's a nice the Matic cut. Because we get graven Stein killing himself. And we cut to Margie saying there's only one way out of this burg doc. And it's if I kill myself, and then she said, she's like, but I don't even know if that's true. Because I think there's ghosts here. And it's like, it's, it is so overwhelmingly sad. Like, where where this woman is at? You know, she is she like, Sophia is like, yeah, go S.T.A.R.S Just in people's mind. And then finally she says, Well, maybe maybe I only have myself to blame. Yeah, yeah. And is herself. She blames herself. And it's like, the ultimate in like, she has been gaslit to the point where she like, everything bad thing that has happened to her down Rapture. is her fault.

Phil  1:17:10
Yeah, yeah. She blames herself. So she has she has bought the company store line, hook, line, and sinker. Anybody who here who doesn't know what the company store is, by the way, go ahead and do your I'm not going to get into it at this point. Because Christ, but like, check out the Wikipedia article on look it up country stores and how that shit works. So

Kevin Erhard  1:17:37
the company's store

Phil  1:17:39
Exactly. And this is just an this is a natural extension of that. Yeah. If if if programs like the New Deal, and if and if certain socialistic things hadn't happened. This this is this is the natural progression of these things, right?

Kevin Erhard  1:17:58
Yeah, and Sophia writes down now there's a consistent pattern of disappointed expectation and patients like everybody who has come to rapture, in that she is talking to is disappointed that they are not that their lives are not better. That Rapture was not some silver bullet. It wasn't a magical cure all. Not it wasn't a tincture tonic, that that would make their life better by removing, you know, church in the government and all this stuff that was just standing in their way. So they can be great people, you know, yeah,

Phil  1:18:33
yeah, exactly. Exactly. And that's how it's sold. That's how that kind of thing is they always they always pay lip service to like oh, there's gonna be some work involved. Yeah,

Kevin Erhard  1:18:41
and but Sophia, that's when Sophia just makes the note the the New Deal note to herself basically no recourse for those stricken by bad luck. No WPA which was the Works Progress

Phil  1:18:54
authority, right. Like the CCC Yeah, same basic

Kevin Erhard  1:18:57
nothing to catch those who fall enormous potential for social ferment so

Phil  1:19:05
yeah, it's just it she's seeing she's seeing it's they're good sections, it kind of initially you might look at this and go what does this serve that wasn't served already with her last worker and this this is the worker who she was talking to is obviously the laborers, the people on the ground, this is somebody who is even lower on the rung, right? This is this is this is a woman who has been forced into prostitution right. And his and his if you can even believe it somehow lower on the run than some unskilled NaVi out there just trying to make a buck. These people are these people are being taken advantage of and hurt right and and it somehow gets worse.

Kevin Erhard  1:19:48
It somehow just keeps getting worse and lamb finishes are thought, a gradual revolution first in mind and then in fact, transport worming rapture from within. So she has her mo now for for for dealing with the problems. And then it's back it's we get we get Frankie Fontaine is back in the

Phil  1:20:13
I need a little more fun tan and

Kevin Erhard  1:20:14
what's fun? What's he doing? What's he doing here?

Phil  1:20:17
Well Fontein still digging on rapture, he still really seems to be enjoying it. And he's scamming him. As he planned. He started smuggling, he's bringing in beef because the people of rapture are getting sick of fish, because all there is is fish, right? I love fish. But yeah, eventually you're gonna want a steak. Yeah, or some chicken nuggies and

Kevin Erhard  1:20:40
smuggling Mickey D's Come on.

Phil  1:20:42
Yeah, why not? I know he's, he's, he's, he's smuggling that in along with Bible Bible and he makes it he makes a point of saying Ryan hates Bibles. I just laugh at people like Bibles. It really he does not have you know, he doesn't have an opinion on these things. He just knows there's a need.

Kevin Erhard  1:20:59
There's a need. He's a businessman is exactly.

Phil  1:21:03
Exactly. So he's like he's he's basically filling in the gaps that Ryan refuses to.

Kevin Erhard  1:21:08
So here's the thing. Here's an I just came made this connection is that the difference between Ryan and Fontane is that Fontane is, in actuality, the Objectivists who needs like this is if you want it to be truly objectivist to the prescribed standards of objectivism or whatever. That's Frank Fontaine.

Phil  1:21:38
I don't know about I don't know if I'd take it that far only because objectivism is still an

Kevin Erhard  1:21:44
ethos to fontina has given

Phil  1:21:47
right the right to get to get real about ski on you say what you

Kevin Erhard  1:21:51
will about objectivism man, but it's still an ethos. It's so funny.

Phil  1:21:54
Ryan is Ryan is still he's he's so fine Jane

Kevin Erhard  1:21:59
is more of like an a nihilist capitalist is he's

Phil  1:22:03
not he's an he's an he's an anarcho capitalist. Yes such a thing can even exist

Unknown Speaker  1:22:08
which I know it does. It does. But

Phil  1:22:10
he is Yeah, he is a nihilist out to make a buck for himself. Fanta Fontaine Ryan as much of a scumbag as he is, at least has a series of rules here. His rules are stupid. Okay. And he ignores them 50% of the time. But he does have rules and Fontane has no rules, right? So they're they're very similar. They are they are intensely similar people. And the only reason and you see it in the way that right it's kind of hilarious. Because Ryan regards Fontane with kind of he knows they don't have the proof. We find out he they don't yet have the proof that Fontaine's doing all the smuggler ship. But they're pretty sure. And even with that knowledge, I am kind of respects Fontane. He goes he's willing to do what he needs to do. And Fontane don't give a shit about Ryan

Unknown Speaker  1:23:04
he doesn't give a shit that guy. Fuck that guy. And

Phil  1:23:07
and it's like, and here's the thing. They're both despicable people totally. But at least with Fontane, you're like he's actually living the way he means to live. Yeah. You know, if you're going to live if you're going to live by some sort of ethos, then fucking do it. Right. And that's Ryan can't even pull that up. Now all of his money and connections and all that shit.

Kevin Erhard  1:23:29
Ryan is concerned with specifics. Exactly, exactly.

Phil  1:23:34
What you care

Kevin Erhard  1:23:35
about this, like, like, we're like, Oh, that would betray my one rule. Or like Fontaine's, like, rules now. Yeah. Like that's

Phil  1:23:43
exactly. Ryan has a vision. Ryan has a vision. He, he is very Ryan is very into how smart he is. Yeah. You know what I mean? Ryan is very wrapped up in being a great man. Fontane doesn't give a shit about being a great man. He just wants your money. Yeah. You know, and that's, that's where it is it ego plays no part in it. Right. You know. Fontane kills a guy and takes his identity and doesn't spend an hour and a half afterwards jerking himself off over how smart he is. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's the

Kevin Erhard  1:24:18
building statues to himself. Right?

Phil  1:24:21
He's just he's there to take the gems out of the statue. He is a true chaotic neutral thief. Yeah. You know. And so, yeah, we it's it's a it's they seem very similar, but and they are, but there's a enough of diff there's

Kevin Erhard  1:24:38
Yeah, there. Are there is a little bit of a Yeah. And whereas Ryan is lawful evil.

Phil  1:24:45
I wouldn't Yes, I would argue yes. Lawful evil. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Selfishness is a virtue and I have a code of ethics. Yes, even though I won't call them exactly.

Kevin Erhard  1:24:57
But Fontaine is meeting with Dr. Su Chang and Dr. Su Chong untended balm, and Tenenbaums like, yeah. I mean, Ryan kept telling us to work on whatever. And then like, wouldn't give us the money to do what we want it to do.

Phil  1:25:12
And there's no money. There's no money to fund. Yeah.

Kevin Erhard  1:25:15
And Fontaine's, like, well, then, I would love to, you know, I would love to fuck with Ryan. Yeah. He's like, Tenenbaum, you're working as a free agent. Yeah, it's a good description. And that's when she mentioned the thing about Ryan being inconsistent with the funding. Yeah, and Su Chang is like, yeah, I don't want to make Ryan angry. But we need more money. We to do the things that we want to do. And then,

Phil  1:25:46
and the stuff they want to do is pretty fucking horrible. Like, Sushant that's where we have Sushant going, Oh, they're so fucking, they'd like they we want to experiment. We have we know what we need to experiment on. And they're all such babies. We want to experiment on their kid. Yeah. And they're like, Oh, I gotta protect the kids. Like He literally says,

Kevin Erhard  1:26:07
Yeah, so like, so this is great. This is like, just misogyny and rapture. Oh, here we go. So this is true what you say Ryan says work on anything but research costs money. This is this is kind of I'm saying his financial support is what is the word and consistent She flicked her eyes at SU Chong. Dr. Su Chong does not wish to make Mr. Ryan angry, but we both need more. And Sue Chuck frowned. Women do not speak for me. Yeah. It's like, yeah, it's they have a real detente between su Chong and Tenenbaum.

Phil  1:26:43
They it's it's kind of amazing. They they outwardly

Kevin Erhard  1:26:46
don't like each other and they they still work together some

Phil  1:26:51
right? Well, they they they actually do reckon they they don't agree on almost anything. Oh, but they recognize the skill in each other and and if it weren't for them, because they I think they openly admit they probably wouldn't be where they are if it weren't for the

Kevin Erhard  1:27:05
other. Yeah, cuz Sue Chang soo Chang is I forget what his specific specialty is. But he's really more about even neuro neurosurgeon, neurology, something like that, because he's something he's more about them how the brain and synapses work, whereas she's all about genetics.

Phil  1:27:26
Right? Right.

Kevin Erhard  1:27:28
So yeah, they're having a conversation, and Fontaine wants to basically take them under his wing. Su Chang has a speech about how vile children are.

Phil  1:27:40
Yeah. And he wants to expand and then he wants to experiment on them. And Fontanka says, Well, I can't get you that right now. But I can probably get you some people, some adults who have been very naughty. Yeah.

Kevin Erhard  1:27:57
And it's like, contains like, what's funny is like, there are moments in this story where even Fontane is given like a gives like a slight pause. To what Yeah, yeah, the insane scientists want from him. Yeah, in there.

Phil  1:28:12
Everybody seems to have a limit in this. Yeah. Except for the science except for

Kevin Erhard  1:28:17
the scientists. You see, basically he gets to Yeah, he's like, kids. The kids are terrible. But it's an experiment of kids and Fontaine's, like, oh, I mean, I'm actually sure why No, I'm not

Phil  1:28:31
sure you don't fucking I can probably get behind that the paychecks good. If the

Kevin Erhard  1:28:35
money is good. I can get behind that. But let's start with people. That's

Phil  1:28:39
adults. Yeah. Who again? And and from there, they start discussing the beginning of plasmids, essentially, of powers of being able to manipulate the human body to heal and to do all kinds of things at the body right to make Uberman

Kevin Erhard  1:28:58
Yeah, if you Yeah, yeah. The and this will lead into the Fontaine futuristics and the plasmids and, and all that fun stuff.

Phil  1:29:05
All that stuff that I know, you've all been waiting for. Yep. So we'll

Kevin Erhard  1:29:09
leave it there for this evening, because that was a, it was a lot of stuff that he knows a lot

Phil  1:29:16
of stuff. It's the this this part. Part two is meaty in so many ways. It covers a lot of ground. It's very long. And it also there's a lot to talk about in this. There's a lot of stop and talk about. There's I wouldn't be surprised if it takes us like three parts just to get to the part two of this book. Yeah, exactly. Because

Kevin Erhard  1:29:37
and you got new characters kind of popping in and out. There's so much happening in in part two of this book. It is it is a huge chunk of the book. And so that was that was the first three chapters of part two, the first three or four chapters, part two.

Phil  1:29:56
There are how many I

Kevin Erhard  1:29:58
think it's it's Part, it goes up to chapter 13. But somebody's chapters are much longer than others. Even in the I was looking at the audio book, table of contents, and several of these chapters alone, the chapter is an hour long. By itself. Yeah. You're in the audio book. So they are some beefy chapters in here. Yeah,

Phil  1:30:24
yeah, we're gonna we're covering a lot of ground here. And on top of that, it's a highly political book. And that means that me and Kevin are gonna go on rants ever

Kevin Erhard  1:30:31
gonna stop and just talk about the politics and that's fine.

Phil  1:30:34
I have to believe here's the thing. If, if you've been following us all along, and you don't care for our politics, you're you're not here. You haven't you haven't haven't stayed around for this one. You know, or if you have you're like, I like the show, except for they occasionally get into a political rant that I don't like, but it's good. The moment you saw we were recovering a Bioshock. Franchise book. You were like, I'm out. I'm out. Yeah, I'll see you guys in a month and

Kevin Erhard  1:31:03
see see us in a month when we're when we're back on some other bullshit.

Phil  1:31:07
Right, right. Exactly. If you're if you're just now joining us and you don't like our politics by a it's really as simple as that. I was thinking about it the other day. When I was reading this book, yeah. And I wrote a I wrote and made a YouTube video that was a mini documentary about Dungeons, Dungeons and Dragons in the Satanic Panic in the 19 a great video it's my most popular video. Thank you very much. Check it out on YouTube, but l con Keisha dork, it's my most popular video. And I still I thought I was being clear when I made this years and years ago, I still get comments from people on there who believe on one hand stupid and or despicable things and think that I'm on their side and and I've always regretted that I wasn't even more bare bare bones clear.

Kevin Erhard  1:32:10
With with some of the people that have that thought pattern. You really got to hammer it. You got to be exactly clear.

Phil  1:32:20
So let this be my manifesto SP. Let us be very clear. We are not. We are we are not.

Kevin Erhard  1:32:28
We're not Randy ends you're looking for.

Phil  1:32:31
We are not Yeah, thank you. That's it. That's the one that's the one that is like our 19th Teacher 19th

Kevin Erhard  1:32:37
t shirt idea. We're not the Randy we're not the Randy ends you're looking for fucking cry. So

Phil  1:32:44
but this is but the books I mean, but it's Yeah, it is. It's a good book. Good

Unknown Speaker  1:32:48
so far.

Kevin Erhard  1:32:49
I'm digging it. Yeah, I'm already I think I'm already read to just about the end of part two.

Phil  1:32:55
Yeah, so I'm a few chapters away from the enterprise. So I know where it's gonna tell you if people if you if you've got if you got an Audible account or anything like that, get the audiobook version of this. If you're looking for an excuse to replay BioShock there is nothing quite so satisfying as replaying BioShock while listening to the pre cool like listening to you because you're listening to where this world started out while playing through its future. And the the the just the cataclysm that came from

Kevin Erhard  1:33:28
the decay of a crew Randian society. Oh, you get to just bask in it.

Phil  1:33:35
It does. It does want to buddy good. It

Kevin Erhard  1:33:37
really has one. Good. It's,

Phil  1:33:40
it's Yeah, so it's it's a great book so far. I'm really enjoying it. They he would have to really, really goddamn drop the ball.

Kevin Erhard  1:33:48
And who knows. I mean, you

Phil  1:33:49
might have seen it happen.

Kevin Erhard  1:33:51
We have covered books, and that have done that before. So yes, we're always ready for exactly the

Phil  1:33:58
halfway point. Exactly the half.

Unknown Speaker  1:34:02
Okay. Oh, oh. Oh, no. What is this?

Kevin Erhard  1:34:06
What is this? What's happening here? What do I have on my? Oh, that's weird. That's weird.

Phil  1:34:13
It's almost it was funny when you screen blanked it out at a time to suggest that it was unseeable, untoward materia. So but yeah, so far so far, basically exactly halfway through the book right now. And but so far, so good. So yeah,

Unknown Speaker  1:34:31
I'm diggin it. Yeah, me too.

Kevin Erhard  1:34:33
All right. Well, that'll do it for today's episode, if you want. Actually, I'm not going to say if you want, please just go and follow us on Twitter at pixel it pod. It is probably the fastest way to get updates on whatever the hell we're doing. Also, go and go to pixilla That's our website. All the episodes get posted there with the added bonus of having a automated transcript So you can see what a computer thinks we're saying at the very least.

Phil  1:35:04
Oh the futures are wide and wondrous it is it is

Kevin Erhard  1:35:08
a wild and wacky Mr. Toads wild ride of technology. So pixel ID at pixel pod on Twitter. Please go check us out there. If you're listening on Apple or iTunes, go down to the bottom, give us five stars or write us up a nice little review. It really helps the analytics. Until next time, thanks for listening and have a good night. Bye

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